Karnfull Energi

There's a way, a way such a better way today, today. The nation's voice tells the world there's a better way, today there's a better way. This is Rod Adams and it's time for another Atomic Show. And with me today I have two entrepreneurs from Sweden, Christian Solander and John Albert. They are the founders of a fascinating new company called Carneful Energy. And energy, I'm sorry. And Carneful is a marketer of 100% nuclear electricity to Swedish residents. And I think they have some plans to expand their offering outside of Sweden. Welcome to you both. Thank you Rod. At that time, I give you the Atomic Show. I love that theme song by the way. There's a way, there's a way, that's a better way. Yeah, I love that one. And I'm not sure if you've heard there's two versions of that song. And one says, the way is the atoms way. But some people get confused. They don't have to say the atoms way. It's atoms way. Is that your own original song? What is that? It was a commission song. There's a guy in the US named Jeff Smith who does all kinds of really cool tunes. You know, he does, you know, commercial jingles and all kinds of stuff like that. But he makes music for people on commission. So I gave some parameters and said, hey, Jeff, can you make a song? Of course, I also paid him. So, you know, that's a good thing about creativity these days. If you have skill. And if you have skill, I've got a new graphic that I'm going to unveil pretty soon. That I got created by another online artist who goes by the nomenclature of Mountain J and Mountain J created me a little icon that I'm going to unveil pretty soon. And it shows it's going to illustrate my smoking gun posts, which is my smoking gun series on atomic insights. So I'm going to talk about the proof that I found of the fossil fuel industry or fossil fuel interest effort to slow down the development of nuclear energy. It's not really the environmentalists that were effective. It was the backers of the anti-nuclear people that was really effective. So anyway, that's neither here nor that. That's smoking gun. Let's talk about car-full energy. And, John, I think I heard you tell nuclear titans how you came about with the idea. And I want to hear that same similar story. How did car-full energy come about? Well, maybe you want to hear Christian side of the story this time around. I think I don't know. How many listeners you share with the friends? That'd be great. We could do that. Yeah, I mean, I hope we have the same experience how this came about really. But I started with, you know, it started with a ski trip with our families, really. But in effect, it started early in that because we discussed things like the energy problem in the world and, you know, energy poverty in the world. But we haven't really thought about making it into kind of a commercial product before. And I guess there's back story too. I mean, we've known each other for 20 years or something, you know, for a long time. And then started hanging out more frequently in past years as their daughters became close friends. And we're both entrepreneurs and we've done solid careers. And then, you know, this opportunity came about. You go back in, Christian. Oh, yeah, no, no. So we started, you know, the first thing we had, it was like, we love nuclear. We understand the benefits of it. We understand the economic aspects of it as well. And that was, you know, what amazed us is that why isn't there a commercial product for this amazing source of energy? And why is it whenever we talk about nuclear, the conversation get hijacked and semi-truths or so comes up. So we kind of wanted to test the water to see if this was kind of a general perception that nuclear is bad. But if there was actually something hidden beneath the surface that maybe, you know, most people, they think about this in a rational way, but they haven't had a chance to express it before. And that was what our commercial offering would do. Like, show the world with your wallet that you actually appreciate nuclear as a power source. Yeah. And I mean, it just made sense to see if there was a market for 100% nuclear tariff in Sweden. Sweden's, you know, very pro-nuclear country, at least historically. And we have a lot of nuclear in our energy mix. So we decided to see if we could market that thing only. And it really took off. It was fun. We were first to market. We launched it and it turned into a really nice little operation for us. So, of course, neither one of you actually built a nuclear plant. How do you sell a nuclear electricity? Well, John, I think you should explain this. I tend to become too technical when it comes to this. Yeah. I mean, it's all down to the guarantees of origin, which basically means that for every produced kilowatt hour of a certain electricity source, there is a certificate. So in Sweden, our residual mix is 40%, hydro 40%, nuclear, 20% renewables. And if you're not actively selecting the origin source of your household's electricity, then you're going to get that mix. And what you can do is that you can say, you know, I want my household to run on 100% wind, or 100% hydro. And that's been the options for, you know, there's hundreds of companies selling 100% solar in Sweden, which is crazy. We barely have, you know, sun, you know, for four hours a day. And I'm just imagining the long dark country of Sweden, which as a fair portion of it above the Arctic Circle, right? Yeah, close to you. Yeah. Well, it's bizarre, but people don't view electricity as, you know, something that you have to mind, if you like. And that's true. I mean, circle you haven't. I mean, you're using the same, the same electrons, if you like. But then what happens with these guarantees of origin is that you actually make a selection of which source you want to support with your consumption over the year. So if I consume, you know, 20,000 kilowatt hours, I can say I would like that to be by the origin of nuclear for the first time ever with us. That means that instead of buying, you know, the certificates or the guarantees of origin from wind or solar or from hydro, we started trading in these certificates for nuclear. And by doing so, you are, you know, actively driving revenues to the nuclear industry and, you know, proving to the market or to the population that there is indeed a sincere interest from citizens to support this beautiful energy source as well. You know, there's never been the option before. So are you guys in danger of running out of nuclear electricity to sell? All right. We're in central. Let me like if 40% of the population says I want on nuclear, then where are you going to get the rest? It is quite a lot of a new energy produced in Sweden still. The problem is that even though Swedes have, you know, been slow to appreciate nuclear benefits, elsewhere in Europe, people are starting buying Swedish guarantees of origin for nuclear. Since they see this as a way of, you know, kind of greenwashing their industries in a way. I mean, this is flawed. We have to say that from the start, right? I mean, the way that the German industry is climate-conspinating by buying the guarantees of origin from Norwegian hydro, you know, these things. It's just bizarre, but it's the tool that exists to prove that you're supporting, you know, one of the other energy sources. And so we play with that tool, but, you know, go back. Yeah, but yeah, it's still so much nuclear energy produced in Sweden that we won't run out anytime soon. But I think more stressed if I was 100% solar provide. Yeah. You know, where do they even find the certificates? So someone should look into that, you know, because there's a lot of households in Sweden that think that they run at 100% solar. And, well, I don't think there's enough certificates to do that, but that's well. Well, you know, in the state of Vermont here, they had an interesting situation where they claimed to be producing a lot of renewable in Vermont, but they were selling all the renewable certificates elsewhere. Yeah. Sort of double counting them. Yeah. It's a job. Yeah. So that's what happens in Norway, for instance. Well, Norway is one of the cleanest energy systems in the world. They have immense hydro system there, but they're selling off all of these sorts of guarantees of origin to Germany at the moment, which in fact means that they're trading, you know, the Norwegian energy mix for the German energy mix. So in fact, you're charging your Tesla's in Oslo on cold power, which is weird. But it's true. I mean, it's a paper product. It's true. And I think, I know the whole system of guarantees of origins are going to be, you know, it's going to be revisited within, you know, a few years now because it's become this problem. But we're happy that we were able to kind of surprise the market to gain a lot of attention as we launched the company by just, you know, being the first one to say, here's 100% nuclear coming get it. And that snowball gave us a lot of sign ups that we could know that we would be able to build a sustainable company based upon. So it was. Sure. Do your customers pay the same price for nuclear as they would for a grid mixer, do they pay a little premium or do they play less? Well, I mean, it's roughly the same as everyone else. I mean, we're buying the energy from the market as anyone else is doing here. So we're, since we don't have separate power lines running into the houses, you buy the mix and the mix is traded in an exchange in Oslo. So we buy the same mix and then we on top buy these, generate, the guarantees of origin. So it's not that much more expensive. It is a little bit. But yeah, I mean, if you want to have a dedicated source energy, you pay, I guess you call it premium, but it's so, it's so petite. But I think, I mean, we're not more expensive than any of the renewable contracts, if you like. we're cheaper than those coming looking at the guarantees of origin specifically from there. Okay. So somebody who's paying for a guaranteed supply from a particular source has to pay a little overhead compared to something you just buys whatever's on the grid. Yeah. But we're talking, you know, it's petite that's don't say. it's not a lot at all. Maybe it's, well, depending on the market price or spot price of energy at the time, but we're talking maybe a couple of percent of the total energy price. Yeah. And in the US. there's a lot of stressed companies operating nuclear plants. The stress level would drop if they could simply get another $10 a megawatt hour. Because of the better quality of their electricity. Exactly. And now we're approaching my favorite topic when it comes to this. That, as you know, Rod, we've discussed this before. But there is, and there must be, you know, a mechanism where you actually get paid for the quality that you're producing. And we don't have that in Sweden at the moment. We have a, you know, marginal cost pricing error or energy only type of situation. Which is, you know, back in the day when we didn't have intermittent sources that produced, you know, stochastically. It wasn't a big problem to have that kind of model. Because kind of everyone delivered kind of the same product, even though they delivered it based on different sources. So hydro and nuclear and the fossil fuel, they delivered kind of the same product. But now we have kind of a differentiation in the products. So energy is not just any energy anymore. So we have, you know, intermittent power that is actually very good at producing very cheap power. But it doesn't produce anything else. It doesn't create system stability. It doesn't produce 24, 7, 365 days a week or a year. So maybe we have to rethink this a little bit and create a pricing mechanism where you actually get paid for all the aspects of the product instead. Yeah. And that would be challenging. Yeah. One of the comparisons I like to make is an old joke about a guy who goes into a grocery store and looks at the tomatoes and tells the grocery store, man, your tomatoes are awfully expensive. You know, I can get these same tomatoes in the farmer's market for a quarter of the price. And the grocery store guy says, so good, the farmer's market and buy them. But it's winter time. The farmer's market's not open. Yeah, exactly. It is like that. I mean, we could get a very, very cheap electricity if we only want our lives to be on when it's windy or sunny outside. It could be potentially very cheap. But the problem is that the frequency will vary. And that times when it's sunny will vary and when it's wind will vary. So pretty much you will have a lot of energy during summer where you don't consume many. And at winners, you won't have any. And our industries don't want to operate their machines 24 or 7. So they need to be able to plan ahead to say we're having 200,000 cars in Q3. That's going to take a lot of electricity and let's hope it's windy and sunny. It doesn't make sense. So I think I use that comparison quite a lot when I explain these things to people who have thought about it with a shower taking a shower. If you want to take a shower when it's raining, that's going to be really cheap. You can go outdoors, it's raining, you can just take a shower. If you're interested in taking a shower indoors, when you want with heated quality water, then there's going to be some system costs associated to taking that shower. You're going to need water storage, you're going to need heating, you're going to need cleansing, filter, et cetera. And that kind of gets people to think. So yes, it's cheap to take a shower when it's raining. But it may cost a little bit more to actually do it indoors and heat it in water. And yeah. Another thing when you talk about people want to power their lights with the sun. And I like to say, well, we've been using the sun for light forever. Yeah. When it's up, I'm going to use it for light. No, it's true. But I think, and I want to say that we're not against renewable energy. just we don't think it's a good idea to have an energy system based solely on these things. They should be in there, but they should have their share that is appropriate for the system. Not anymore. They should be cost neutral to the other energy sources. And then they're benefit into consideration in terms of wildlife and in terms of how much land it occupies, et cetera. But I mean, they do fill a roll. It's just, you know, Sweden's actually, you know, it's a great mix. 40% hydro 40% nuclear and 20% intermittent probably a bit too much intermittent. But it's, you know, the stupid thing happening here is that we're closing down our nuclear plants. We have a political agreement saying that by 2045 our grid is going to be 100% renewable. And that does not make any sense whatsoever. Didn't you guys have a political agreement back in the 1980s that you were going to start shutting down your nuclear plants? Yeah, we had the great option of a referendum where we could choose on three different ways to shut them all down. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. We couldn't vote to keep them on. But we have three different options to shut them down. So the least stupid alternative one, but it was still stupid. But no one's listening to that. We've confirmed them anymore. I think I mean, it's true that out in 2000 and 80,000. I mean, we've been through some crazy stuff in Sweden if you go back historically after, you know, we were leading the pack with nuclear. I guess we still are, to some extent, you know, through the 70s and 80s. We were doing so well. And then Chernobyl came around and, you know, in a move of incredible irrationality, we decided to ban all thinking of nuclear. So there was actually law in place from 1987 up until 2004 banning domestic business development around nuclear power. It was even called the thought for bidding law. Yeah. Yeah, I could you talk. It's just Google it. Thanks for the slogan. So that was there. And when that dropped off because that made no sense and electricity seemed to be a popular thing for the 21st century. So so they kind of, you know, okay, let's not do that. They put in a lot of penalty taxes and stuff. You know, so it's really been, you know, unfairly treated for for many, many, many years, nuclear power. And after layering on all these penalties and extra taxes, I guess there are no longer economic, is that correct? Well, it depends on today. No, I would say because the energy situation here is a bit messed up with transmission problems and renewable intermittent generation during winter times. So it's a bit, it's a bit weird question. If you would have asked me six months ago, I would have not hesitated in saying that they are economic, the old plants that should keep them forever. I think they are economic if you take into the consideration, the system benefit of it. They will definitely have a role. But in an energy only model, they're gonna struggle a little bit more, especially when we have mild winters, I would say. But the others. And I mean, any electricity production is struggling in this market because we've overbuilt windmills up in the north of Sweden where we have no transmission opportunities. And then it's really windy right now. So we're having negative prizes which makes pretty much any investment in electricity production, you know, regardless if it's hydro or wind or solar or nuclear, you know, not feasible. If anything, you would look for a project that has an 80 year lifespan, you know, and so I guess that's the upside. But no one's gonna invest in any kind of new project as long as the prizes are negative. Right. Because if you build any capacity to produce a product that sells for less than zero, how do you make any money at all? No, exactly. The problem is that, and we saw this, I was part of a group that calculated this like in 2007, 2008, we started looking at this problem that you have used ice for relation in these things. You know, if you start building wind and you're building wind, you know, you know, designated your graphical area, whenever it's windy, everything is gonna be produced. So they will not earn any money from it because they will be overproduction. And then it stops blowing, which means that they stand still and they're not earning any money anyway. So what happens is when it's windy, it's actually pushing the prize down for any energy producer, regardless of the source. And then we have to pick up the slack when it's not windy anymore. And it's not a good thing that price correlation has happened. And I guess, you know, that slack is actually gonna be natural gas coming from Russia, you know, for Europe. So I mean, that's the really downfall, you know, in terms of emissions, but it all in terms of independence because now we have these pipelines and if no one's investing enough in building new renewable energy, we're gonna need to find electricity for this grand electrification that's gone on right now. I mean, Sweden's gonna add 60% more electricity consumption in the next 20, 30 years. Where's that electricity gonna come from if we're not gonna be, you know, operating our nuclear power plants or if we're not gonna be building, you know, other kind of capacity. So someone's winning and you can figure out who. So your law says all renewable. Is there any chance of redefining the word renewable? Yeah. I mean, a couple of the parties here have already left that agreement. So they agreed this in 2016. Yeah, I mean, you know, not to paint ourselves too big, but I think we were instrumental in having people talk about nuclear all through the, you know, second half of last year and political parties were looking at what we were doing and talking about nuclear in the same way that we were doing and then in December, I think it was three or four of the parties, you know, decided to leave this agreement. It's not a law in my new rod. It's an agreement, Swedish, you know, the. The sense is driving agreements. Yeah. And they said exactly what you were saying, why not change that word renewables to sustainable or fossil fuels? fossil fuels. Yeah, fossil fuels. And, and you know, that makes all the difference because that would unlock potential investors going into nuclear development, etc. And I think that's probably going to happen, but right now there's other things going on in this crazy world of ours, right? So yeah, I know in China, for example, the word renewable includes nuclear. Yeah, they just know that. I know that all the US we had this, we had a group of people. Yeah, look at him. What's that? I know in the Ablicani and they're looking for a bill to to relabel nuclear power as renewable. There's well to keep the abel canyon on on line as well. So I mean, you can do that. I mean, it's not wrong because if you look at the amount of uranium available in all the oceans around the world and the way that you can harvest that, that that source. I mean, it's it's renewable as anything else. You know, if you want to use that in a lot of places, people define burning waste. And this will solve waste as being renewable. Well, I am. I didn't hear that US for a while. Yeah, we're doing that. We're shipping up pieces of wood from the Amazonis to Stockholm, Sweden and burning to keep our houses warm instead of using nuclear power. What's renewable? you just go another tree right that's you can return a tree in about an hour and take a few few decades to grow but yeah exactly we didn't think of a high mass but that's all you know that's one of the most frustrating parts of this i think is when you watch people talking about renewable versus nuclear if you want to take that group you know people always forget you know the lifetime of a windmill or a you know solar panel and the lifetime of nuclear it's not even the same thing of course that's what we're trying to stay away from politics because and we're being completely independent and unpolitical in everything that carnival does is because we see politics as a four-year term thing and then someone else shows up you know this is an eighty-year commitment to bring electricity to the society and you know don't go in there and meddle with with your short-term you know green party you know decisions and and and and and that's that's that's important to remember that there's you know we're talking about next generation here you know people our kids need some way to to to to charge their Tesla's or cook their food well it in your effort to help people recognize it many people in Swedish society value nuclear do you think there's any chance of people starting to build new nuclear in Sweden yeah i think definitely i think it will happen it's not going to happen tomorrow and we might have to change the way you know electricity is valued before we do that but i think it's inevitable that we will see some kind of you can say tectonic shift in this in the energy pricing structure that we have and once that's done i think nuclear is going to be very compelling going forward and then we yeah i mean you have to remember that nuclear power is the only sustainable planable and scalable electricity source you know for the future i mean we're there's no getting around that you can't build new free flowing rivers you can't you know expect the renewables to come on board with some kind of magical storage solution that wouldn't destroy the entire minerals of our earth you know that that's why it's a long game it has to be a long game it's a frustrating long game because we're losing time by the day when we're not building new plants and we're not you know going full speed ahead with a nuclear waste recycling etc but but you know i think there will be you know Sweden for sure because now we see a foot doom we've just acquired uniper own a lot of nuclear power plants in Sweden they're very pro nuclear understands and but then finally even you know that that's been you know very heavily politicalized over the past few years are now engaged in a SMR project in Estonia so things are happening and and things are shifting which is great and i'm pretty sure you know if you look long term for Europe and the way that we want to electrify Europe Sweden geographically southern Sweden is ideal to be pushing out clean green beautiful nuclear power to you know the ball ticks to to to poll and to to Germany etc and and you know that's that's of course going to happen and the economy is going to be in there just look at the ridiculous amount of money that Germany has spent on trying to get rid of nuclear and not even you know trying you know making a single improvement on their on their emissions so it's so for sure i mean it's there but it's it's frustrating that's what you know our advisor you had Kirstie Gogon in their gingersall on your show last week and those are those guys are you know our advisors amongst our advisory board and they're looking very hard at at the specific you know how do we make it cost efficient how do we make nuclear come alive in this century and and I mean I think they're doing a great job and I think we will see it happen so I sort of alluded to it earlier but do you have any plans to come to the US and try to offer 100 percent nuclear energy to maybe help some of our plants stay viable or to make some money for yourself well I mean we've said that Sweden it's our home market it's where we start but we're we're already now looking at you know interesting options that we have elsewhere and it's nothing you know as it's done says about nuclear it's a long game we're in it to you know change something and it makes sense that everyone that things like that things like we do we kind of work together to say it's worse the same goal but so yeah we're talking to a lot of people in a lot of countries at the moment in doing doing things doing what we've done here in a way you need to do what the French did uh raw they set up a petition to to grab the names of people that 100 percent nuclear tariff I think there's over 3,000 names on that petition in France now which makes France an interesting country for us I mean if corn full energy and I think you know that's probably going to be the name going forward shine full energy in Swedish I mean it was never really intended to go outside of the world of Sweden but the way that me and Christian of building our careers over the many years that we've been living abroad we've always thought globally and always thought internationally and and and now we're seeing that this thing has huge potential I mean there's stuff happening today that we can't really talk about yet but we will be we will be going elsewhere then Sweden before long and there's a there's a you know a priority order but uh you know what we're doing is not magic you know it's it's if there's a there's a benefit to the world gathering their electricity consumption under one brand because that makes the movement stronger this eco rational movement the rational environmentalist movement that we're trying to push a stronger so we can see why corn full place a perfect role and you know for the US we've looked I think there's six or seven states that we could you know potentially do what we're doing and and and and we're talking to people there yes but we have to be agile which was something that we are and and hopefully yeah I mean I would love to I would love to help plants stay online and you know prove their their value I would love to see you know we're working with Caroline Cauffron is part of our advisory board as well from from aqua and you know watching what's happening in that space it's so exciting if carnival energy could be part of that you know as a consumer brand of buying the electricity produced by by current and future nuclear power plants that would be amazing and you know yes we would love to and you know stay tuned there's all we can say right now a moment two of you how many languages do you speak I wish we could feel yeah that's a good thing so I do live in a well a bit little bit of English and then we do I do German and Italian and then John compliments me a little bit yeah I've lived in France I speak French and then I lived in Japan like speak Japanese and so I mean we're it we're capable of taking this venture to to markets that are interested in nuclear power you know how much how much can we take on our own shoulders it depends on the setup but we need powerful partners and that's the that's the track that we're pursuing and and I think there's a there's traction in that thought and there's there's there the we you know don't be surprised if we show up somewhere soon you know you the way you guys respond fast saves me it's uh it sounds like you've had a wonderful friendship and uh you said you you really got to know each other better as your daughters became good friends is that because you vacation together and play together that kind of stuff yeah exactly I mean uh and so me and uh christians wife went to the same school class together I think christian you were there as well you're a few years older than I am four years older so um so uh but we've known each other for for you know good since ever you know 1998 sometime but then living abroad in different worlds and different industries we came back to Sweden about the same time you came from the UK I came from with my family from France and uh just happened that our daughters ended up in the same preschool and became very close friends and I so hey that's Rebecca I used to go you know be classmates with her and then you know we started hanging out and our daughters forged this bond and now we get stuck with each other which is you know fantastic we're very close friends as you can I guess you can tell well it's it's amazing to me when people who have complimentary talents they don't become close friends and and you know just bouncing ideas off each other on a casual basis maybe over a beverage or two is might have happened yeah there might have been it might have happened that way yeah that might have happened when we came up with the current full idea that ski ski vacation up in beautiful mountains of Norway yeah I mean that of course and then but we're very complimentary I mean I can't think of a better fit to my self we have a lot of the same you know crazy go ahead attitude but we're very complimentary in the skill set so you know so you mentioned uh Kirsty Gogen and Eric A. Groszall and Caroline Cochran all of whom are fantastic people who else you have advising you well it's it's it's incredible you know I'm almost blushing when I'm saying it we we have a uh Stephen Pinker the Harvard professor joined the board I mean he's got a platform the science of Texas you know incredibly knowledgeable and very cool guy um to to have on board and then we have two of the most prolific scientists in Sweden so professor Christian Eckberg and Claude Anselandabjerk you know very top top level nuclear waste recycling science and then we have some popular cultures so we figures so we have the musician Jose Gonzalez very you know successful singer songwriter from Sweden um effective altruist and you know eco modernist and and he's uh he's a really cool guy and of course his platform all his fans that gives us a chance to reach out to segments that wouldn't you know naturally gravitate towards questions around electricity or energy but we've also got a guy in LA who's is one of the world's most successful music producers currently writing songs for you know the likes of Ariana Grande and Michael Blue Bay and you know Michael Bolton you know it goes on the list goes on forever Swedish guy was incredibly well connected and and also very helpful so I mean this group I think there's eight people in total is is uh proof positive I guess of that we're not only doing this as a Swedish uh you know start up trying to you know get another household signed up it says it's turned into something much more uh you know important than that and we're incredibly humbled but also very proud of what we what we created and the people that want to help us in support us you know there's no it's a pro bono or thing they're they're seeing what we're seeing they're seeing a world in dire needs of you know stable scalable and clean energy and um carnival can play a role and you know let's give it a let's give it a try. Shousek you could probably have some good fun when you bring these people together though. We're busy playing you've got some some real creative thinkers involved and yeah it could be some fun board meetings so tell me a little bit about describe to me exactly how your your sign-up process started and what kind of response you've got when you first started. Do you want to go Chris? Yeah I mean As we said before, this was our idea and it was motivated by what we thought on Eucre and the idea that there must be other people out there thinking like we do. But in order for this to become kind of commercially viable, we wanted to test the water first. So we had this sign of phase pretty much where you could go to a landing page and give us your details. And say that, hey, I would be interested in terror from you. And we launched that with a, you know, a non-paid press release the first weekend in August. And first, the weekend in August is the worst time of the year to do anything in Sweden because everyone is doing anything. They're all on holiday. But Sunday. Sunday. Yeah. But it turned out that people really liked nuclear. So we got, you know, the website of China. Yeah. Yeah. The site couldn't handle the traffic and we reached the number of signups that we said was the kind of a go ahead for a commercial product. We reached that number in less than 24 hours. And we started timeframe about two or three months to get there. So I mean, the big upside was that media picked it up. You know, maybe it was because we were clever to put it out when nothing else was going on. But it was also, you know, it was something there. It's, you know, it hit home with editors and people were, you know, so we just watched it go everywhere online. There were mentions everywhere about this new company coming. And that was all organic. And it still is to a very large extent everything we're doing. I mean, we have one of the largest followings on Facebook, Simone is this segment in Sweden. And we, you know, it's organic growth and our Twitter accounts. I guess you're following them. I mean, we're trying to use them cleverly to put out good news. It's not commercial. It's just, it's just trying to get people enthusiastic and knowledgeable about nuclear power. And by becoming this persona in this industry where, you know, people would like to buy their energy from us because they want to and they want to stay with us, not because we're, you know, popping up at number one in some kind of price comparison list. But, but it's, so it's, it was really surprising. I think we were hoping that it would have some traction, but we were never, you know, we couldn't foresee the kind of bang that we got. And that made us move much quicker than we would have anticipated. We went full speed and set everything up. And, you know, now we have been able to pioneer this industry as well in terms of how you sign up with us now and how, how quick our customer service is, you know, how we had approached loyalty and how we work with, with, you know, one tariff, one price for all, you know. So there's a bunch of things that we brought to the table that we were able to do because we, we were funding it ourselves. We didn't have any, you know, outside pressure on, on, and we're still art, you know. This is the, this is something that we're very keen on keeping control of everything because it means that we can do whatever makes the most sense between me and Christian and we, you know, we share a brain now. So I said we're able to, to, to just, you know, go with the flow whenever we want to. So I suspect that you're probably already profitable. Was that a good guess? Yeah, I mean, we don't, we don't really talk about numbers anyway. I mean, for us, it's where we're doing this nuclear style. And I did say that you like numbers. I mean, I'm not proud of them. I mean, we're, yes, we're, we're making enough money not to close down. I would say. Of course, we're, we're interested in bringing on as many customers as we can. But we've proven that we can, we can continue doing this. I mean, this is something that is very emotional for us to do it. We're not doing this solely based on us making money and having a great profit. I mean, you would even go into this business if you were trying to make money because it is a you know, to be fair, it's a, it's a shitty business because the margins are so squeezed and people are basically changing their contracts like you're changing their underwear. You know, there's no, there's no stability in terms and contracts for like Tris, it doesn't mean anything to people. You know, someone gets a wind contract and someone does this, you know, but it's never, it's never been a proof that you're engaged with something. You know, we're the, we have a webshop where you can buy merchandise, you know, that kind of tells you that there's a different approach to what we're doing and approaching the market in a different way. And that means that we're not going to be in the game of paying, you know, huge, you know, cost of acquisition of customers like like the, and then trying to, to, to screw people over after 16 months of the contract. We're trying to do this the rational way. And, you know, that means that we're growing slow and steady and, and, and things are looking, you know, really good, I think now. Did I see too much again, Chris? No. No. Perfect. No, it's, it's just that, you know, things change from day to day and, um, and we're have, you know, in our mind, we want, we know where we want to be in a couple of years. Uh, so we're doing everything we can to get there. Uh, and that's what drives us. So we're not really thinking about profit these days, you know, it's, we're four months in delivering energy in Sweden. Very, very few companies would be profitable at that point. So, so how do your daughters think about what you're doing? Well, uh, they're all about nuclear power. Yeah. They're eight and they're teaching their classmates about a nuclear power and how it's the safest any source there is and the most reliant ones. So, um, yeah, they're, they're all the examples. Yeah, they're ambassadors for that kid's segment. I can tell you that we have stickers, you know, it says I run in 100% nuclear that you put on your Tesla's and your stuff. And these kids are putting these stickers everywhere, you know, and they're handing out brochures. They, you know, and then I think that's, you know, there's actually some serious footage to it because they're growing up. They were born in 2012 after, you know, even Fukushima happened. So in their world, though, you know, our daughters are going to be the decision makers in 10, 20 years time, you know, and then that's, you know, they're, they don't need to be stigmatized or dogmatized by old, ridiculous, you know, it's like being in shipping and worried about Titanic, you know, if you're thinking about Chernobyl. It's, it's, it's, I think it's just, you watch them and they're very rational in that, you know, generation of kids, they're, they're growing up and they're saying, what do the scientists say? What are the facts? What are, what try to accomplish and how do we do it? And I'm not interested in hearing about your old Vietnam war, you know, veteran pool of environmentalists thinking X-Moyza, you know, and I think that's refreshing. I think there's a new generation. Okay. So have your daughters started talking to the teenager about climate change? The famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, famous, I think, I think, I think that that girl is, you know, she's well aware of the, the, the, the, the positive sides of, of nuclear power. And she even, you know, publicly once wrote on her Facebook that it was, you know, part of the solution, et cetera. So it's, I think we're, I think we're going to see, I think those are, those are one of the things that will happen within the 12, you know, 18 months ahead is that, that, that movement will start talking publicly about what needs to happen in terms of getting firm power coming from, from, from nuclear energy. And, you know, it's things take time and you have to understand where, where they're coming from. And then, you know, what, what, what was in there, you know, childhood grown up. So, so in their parents. So, but this is what I mean, there's a new generation of people that are not going to be dogmatized by old stuff and get this, you know, she's a teenager and, and, and she's probably going to rise above any of these, you know, if, if the fact says that you have emissions of around 12 grams of, of carbon dioxide from per kilowatt hour from nuclear power, then that are the, that's the fact. And then we have that instead of natural gas, which has four and another 90 grams of right. Of course, you just have the disadvantage of having been basically your daughter's ages right now when Fukushima happened. So, yeah, but there's a trauma for her to get over. Yeah, but there's not even a trauma involved in that. I think to a lot of, I think we could see him as what George Mambio wrote in Guardian, you know, some time back, that's, that's proof of how safe nuclear power is because, you know, how many power plants were hit by the tsunami that day on the Japanese East Coast? I, you know, there were at least two other plants that were hit by the tsunami and didn't have any impact. And, you know, it's really even the fourth largest earthquake on this planet is, is, you know, and, and a 14 meter tidal wave, you know, it's horrible stuff we're talking about here. But what happened inside of this nuclear power plant, I think people are understanding that there's a lot of fear mongering, a lot of, you know, activists trying to paint that as worse than, than, you know, it actually was. And that's also going to be impossible to keep up because people are incredibly enthusiastic about facts. You know, the, the, the World Health Organization, or world in data, there's so many sources of facts these days that were never available. So you can't really spin stuff these days, you know, there's a, and I think, you know, that's probably going to be important. I think it is important. And hey, I, and enjoy this conversation thoroughly. But I want to give you, you two a chance. Is there anything about harmful that you'd like to share that we haven't covered yet? I've been spending the whole afternoon talking about corn full to, to journalists, so all kinds of questions you go ahead. What do you want to share about corn full in where we're heading? What's the? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just want to say that again, that, you know, consumer, the consumers, we have power. We just, we just have to see electricity as not another boring product. Electricity can be, can be a beautiful thing. You can make an active choice by, by, you know, thinking about these, these things twice. And if we make that choice, you know, the producers will realize it. And when the producers start talking about this, the politicians will change. So if we start this from the bottom up this time, I think we're going to accomplish something. That's my firm belief. Yeah. I mean, if corn full can be part of that, seeing new reactors come online and seeing old ones being, you know, sustained, you know, it's incredible to be, be, be, be, be considering to be part of that equation. And we're so, you know, humbled and honored to do that. I mean, we have this donation per kilowatt hour. So if you're a consumer, if you're a customer of ours and you consume 2000 kilowatts of, kilowatt hours of electricity from your apartment, then we set aside a sum of money that goes into a donation that our advisory board reviews every year, you know, year one is probably not going to be huge, but year five, it might, you know, very well be. And that is supposed to be allocated to, you know, a cost outside of the guarantees of origin that goes into the, the producer's pocket, but also, you know, maybe there's a scholarship that needs to be funded. And maybe there's a some kind of startup that does something, you know, so that's something that we're really excited about as well, you know, being able to put this into play and give back to, you know, the next generation of nuclear, you know, be it pro-nuclear advocates, you know, the, or be it scientists or whatever makes sense, but it's fun to see that our brand can play a role, you know, outside of just being providing the electricity to your household. Terrific. Again, thank you very much both of you and I do want to keep in touch. I'm very interested in what's going on in. Sweden in the electricity market and in other things that we talked about before the show started and I'm happy to hear such enthusiastic entrepreneurial friendly thinkers involved It's a wonderful thing and and welcome to nuclear. I know you guys have done a lot of other things in your careers I know this is a new business for you, but welcome Thank you open arms. I welcome you so welcome. I think I mean, this is probably a good opportunity as any of this Thank everyone inside of this industry for welcoming us and you know being so Kind to us, you know, we're we're capable to do wonders together and you know being on this show is a great honor and and Thank you for having us Rada You welcome and take care take care and we're good one. Bye We're all there's a better way today Today The ratio boys tell the world there's a better way today There's a better way Oh Such a better way today Today Now reach a voice tell the world there's a better way the way is the atoms way You