Andrew Crabtree, Founder, “Get Into Nuclear”

There's a way, a way such a better way today Today, the nation's voice tells the world there's a better way Today, there's a better way This is Rod Adams and it's time for Atomic Show, number 292. It's been a while since I've talked to all, but I guess I've had a self-enforced quiet period But now it's time to start recording. Again, start talking about Atomic Energy, start talking about politics, technology, economics and history Today, I have with me Andrew Crabtree, under of Get Into Nuclear, Andrew Tell me just a little bit about yourself. So I'm an amateur company, I suppose what I've started I've worked in the nuclear industry as a project manager for about 15 years Now I've come up to 15 years Prior to that, I worked in banking and prior to that I played rugby From an entrepreneur town in Wigan in the UK Which is a right in between Liverpool and Manchester so it's a rugby town No, no, for rugby so it's pretty much It's in the D&A, in the D&A, to play So yeah, my kind of, I went to university at the San Talas as playing And then, so my kind of thing is nuclear As a left school, nuclear was never, it was never really on the agenda For me as a potential career path And an opportunity, an opportunity to come from a role Which of which are talking, as soon as I joined the industry We'd be surprised how friendly and welcoming and collaborative it is As a whole and basically what I'm trying to do now, we're getting to nuclear Is trying to open that up to as many people as possible I think that people themselves individuals are a missionary On potential goods, long-paying jobs, if you will, in nuclear And I think the other side of it is the industry is missing out Not some really good people by not being as kind of open as it could be By free getting to nuclear, I'm trying to raise the profile of the industry I kind of dispelled the spell of the myth And then also trying to, yeah, I suppose promote the range of roles It's available, not every job you need You need to be a doctor and we're a lab court There's lots of jobs that go on and around the nuclear industry And it's just raising them really and then from, I suppose, more apparent With the new clean energy agenda and where everything is from a results and part of you It's no deal of the way around is the industry needs to start Wagging it's customised now a little bit wider Trying to look at different ways of attracting people to join The industry, so I think things have kind of changed around 180 A little bit and we're going to hopefully am open in the near future Anywhere more and more nuclear companies are going to be looking for And they're approach to marketing themselves and marketing the industry and trying to Try to become more attractive and more appealing for people to look to be joining the centre The sector because the moment we're making as an industry we're making some big promises Particularly from a clean green energy point of view And we're going to need a work for us to support us in delivering that What do you say to people or what do you think about when you hear the results of a poll Say in France it said that a majority of the people aged 21 to 34 Thought nuclear was a source of greenhouse gases Yes, it's quiet, France is a very important front in the nuclear It's a little bit in the past And France is a really strange place because they're really impressed Nuclear from a kind of technology point of view And it provides I think it's 90% of the kind of power when you look at the Yeah, still two of mushrooms against other countries, the role is in the green banding And it's very, yeah, it's a country, it's very anti-nuclear for some reason I'm not really, it's as if it's been ingrained in them And maybe it's similar to what it is in the UK I think in the UK as I think I'm only our previous podcast events You kind of said that in the past it's almost been ingrained That nuclear is best when it stays quiet and stays out the way and doesn't Put itself in the face of people And I think that then is probably give people a lot of people to take Kind of the negative perceptions and then and then we've done basically So yeah, it's France is very very Well, it's worrying at the same time, but Yeah, she strains, strains kind of players that are Untenuclearists for how much they'd benefit from from nuclear power across the whole other country Yeah, one of the thesis I have is as you said, the nuclear industry has decided to remain quiet But all that does is leaves the field of battle, so to speak, in the hands of people that don't like nuclear I mean we don't spend a lot of time sometimes you know, I'm sure you've run into this yourself People in the nuclear industry will blame and they'll pop a quote around it, the media For the poor public perception And I say well when did you start telling your own story? Why do you expect the media to tell it if you're not willing to? Yeah, yeah, there's been no no effort whatsoever into into payer across the whole of the industry And I think I think the no As things are moving maybe forward particular with with SNRs And kind of as things have progressed because no more commercial endeavors I think that they'll have a vested interest and we'll put a lot more effort into changing the perceptions And engaging a lot more with the local community And I think that will help because the thing I always find funny with nuclear is that it doesn't need And it's an industry that doesn't need any spin, it just needs to it just needs to layer the facts out And it's more kind of educating people rather than trying to sell the technology It doesn't really need really much selling, it just needs to explain how it works And what it's all about and the perceptions are pretty particular What I've found is, I've been doing a lot of engaging directly into classrooms with young people And yeah people really really surprised in a lot of the I think this is when you talk around nuclear energy and what it's all about and what it doesn't And but I think that people do do take the facts And I then really positive, I think you do see the perceptions of nuclear And I think particularly what's just gone by last week on carrying on this week with COP26 You're seeing more and more that nuclear is becoming more on the engender and people that people are starting to embrace it And acknowledge it as a genuine source of clean energy And I'm going to break here and remind the listeners that I'm talking to Andrew Crabtree Who is the founder of Get into Nuclear? He's got an interesting path in a nuclear in Andrew I'm going to ask you a question that your organization asks others How did you get into nuclear? Okay, so quite, so I grew up in Wigan, which is in an off-west of England in between Liverpool and Manchester I as I left this of a bit, it's a little bit own so when I left I school that was kind of all I wanted to do And today was to play a little bit I did go to the university at the same time I didn't do too but it will never never made the digital in height so I was hoping to do So I got a job working in banking, straight out of a to university And if you ask me the question that nuclear was never even on the agenda I would get a job in nuclear out, he was all around Nuclear for me was was P8s and were in lab courts and kind of messing about with test tubes So I got a job in banking and did that for around about six years I was still playing rugby centre professionally at the time And one of the guys I was working with he was a graduate at Cellophia Limited So he was talking around all the opportunities that nuclear out and the work he was doing So as I could see he was around about 2016, 2007 and you could see that the banking industry was going a bit slower So I put together my CV asking to pass it on to his boss who asked me him for a quick interview and his commercial manager was looking to leave he was going to believe in a retirement within two years so the idea was that I come in because he had a bit of a banking knowledge I come in shadow shadow of a commercial manager for two years and then and then take over from it That was the idea and what it was all about so I decided to to make the jump from banking and and fell into to fell into nuclear everywhere The thing that first struck me on my first day was how going into a brand new industry that I didn't really know anything about was how friendly and welcoming and and clubited the whole thing was And that was the one thing that really struck me from day one And I started working in the instrument and met a lot of friends that I still speak to speak to today doing some really interesting work Interesting work you never you never set on a on a something how you dread in dread in going to work because everything that you do is it's kind of different on a day to day basis From from about six months in the commercial manager decided it wasn't going to retire into his timing was going to do another five years So I've been looking at around at what kind of jobs I would like And I was looking at the project managers and to me A project manager was just the same as being a captain ever on the team So I thought I'd put myself on the on the project management course And then apply for a role and then and then that's then I've been doing that ever since 15 years In different companies across the UK I've done a little bit of work in Europe as well And I'm commonly working with we've come in this new clearer we're doing some some great stuff working on the Bobcock within the UK And across across Canada and other international areas as well So yeah kind of very briefly how I got into nuclear but I think Yeah kind of kind of kind of stumbled into it but very quickly very quickly fell in love with the industry Well you bring up what a point that I was planning on asking you what kind of lessons did you bring from rugby into your career and nuclear I think a lot there's a lot of things that I do that I credit from a from a sports background party view Particularly spin team sports that rugby is and actually as part of a Cavendish nuclear we've got a book club that we're meeting regularly And we're actually reading a book at the moment just finishing a book called Legacy And that's all around the old blacks and how you can take what the old blacks do and attribute that to the to the working environment There's so much for sports that you take I think working in a sport environment it's about team working and kind of having common goals I suppose as well bringing a bit of a bit of fun to the office as well and and also not taking everything too serious all the time but then understanding that there is There's a big need to prepare before you do anything there's there's lots of effort goes into delivering but ultimately when have you do get that success I always try and celebrate it as well and make a Make a thing of before we go on to the next thing which we which we all do and I think that a project environment to the team of is transferred there's been a lot of transferable skills of taking from rugby and brought them into into the into the office Yeah, when I was leading a group of people on board of summer and I was department head engineer and officer I generally enjoyed working with people with course backgrounds. And one of the things that I found was that somebody with a sports background has learned how to pick themselves up and move forward again, even if they'd made a mistake or if something hadn't gone right. People with really good academic backgrounds often have never failed before. Yeah, that's a really good point actually. And that's a, that's a, that is a really big thing is something that is, yeah, yeah, constantly comes to the room behind it, hover at, and I suppose at any spot, but definitely it would be, you kind of, you drop the bar or you miss it's at an end, and that's suppose you don't have, you don't have the time to dwell on it, you know, you can a back-up, back on the field and getting on with it and I suppose you know, it is, it is a good attribute not to, yeah, because there is, there is, yeah, there is a lot of values with things that you do and it's a, and yeah, I think that's definitely a good observation and a good attribute that comes from spot. So tell us a little bit about getting to nuclear, what kind of services are you trying to put together, what kind of networks you're trying to build? So getting to nuclear started about, it's been going for about four years now and as I've joined the nuclear industry and kind of really, really bought into on a really pro to tell people that are working nuclear and anybody, whether I've been in a bar and a restaurant kind of just meeting people I've not seen for a while or family and I guess the question so what is it you do for a living or are you still in banking, are you still playing rugby and I quite apparently tell them that are working nuclear now and a little bit about the industry and I would always be hoping the question, well how did you get into nuclear and I could answer that question, but then when they tell me about what they were doing today, I might be a factory manager or the mailworking sales or the mailworking markets in and then when they ask me the question, how well how can I get into nuclear? I couldn't really give them the answer, I couldn't point them to a place to go on the web or I've given them a phone number or something to bring you could help them and the more and more this happened I got more and more frustrated, twofold from a one that I couldn't help them but also from the fact that the industry is in my mind the industry is missing out and a lot of good people that could bring a lot of value to the sector. So so much so what I decided to do initially is I decided to create a website, it was just a website is a bit of a hub and it provided people information on what kind of role they are and working your apply for jobs working, what courses are available and how can you do that and as time went on, particularly in the UK there's new websites popped up that were government back so either from the national, national skills, the Academy for New Clear Army, the NSSJ they're created, their own websites which provided a lot more information and better information than I could ever do. So the website then turned into more of a signposting website and pointing people to go to the NSSJ website or the NSM website and find out more about about how you can get yourself a job in the new clue and so at least consider that. So the then kind of fast forward, I suppose rewind 18 bumps when we all went into lockdown and I wasn't this prior to that I was kind of spending three or four nights a week in a hotel and the code was on the mortal wares and in the car and in meeting so kind of, I suppose we give everybody a little bit of time to sit back and take stock and a little bit more time initially anyway so I started to look at the site and what it could do and people, I found that more and more people was going to the site I was getting a lot more people asking questions via email or a courses they can do and so I spent a little bit of time updating the website and making it more of a place really and the end for me is anybody who ever visits or whenever an individual visits getting to newclear.com, they whenever they leave the site, they may not choose the one a job, they may not decide that they want a job in new clear because it's not, it's not for everybody being the location or the type of work or for any reasons they may not want to work in this sector but nor they should leave the site feeling that there isn't a role for them if they they don't want to pursue it I think that you can or I definitely myself as I left school and left college I didn't, I felt that I was excluded from applying for a job in new clue and I'm trying to position the site where as anybody comes to the website they should leave the site on the understanding that they're not excluded from from the industry that they're welcomed in the industry and if they do want to, if they do want to look up, skill in the cells or applying for jobs just people around you or willing to help them so that's the, I suppose the main aim of the website and one of the phones as I've been doing that under traffic's increased so just to give you an idea 12 months ago the website was getting about 400 visitors a month where now it's over 8,000 visitors a month it's grown quite a lot in the last, particularly in the last six months really is getting more attention I think what's been going on in the political changes to or the industry's helped with that a lot but one finding when that traffic is people are, people are not now more interested in in asking questions and finding out a bit more about whether that's via phone call or via email or kind of live chat on the site so what I've done is I've started to build our built and a partner network with with over companies that can provide services basically enable the people who have got who are interested in getting to the nuclear industry enable them to get in front of the front of the nuclear employers so for example a partner with a company it gives you the ability to to broadcast directly into schools and colleges so a nuclear employer is looking to imply in a particular region of the UK whereas they may not potentially get many applicants from that area historically we can we can broadcast and and give career talk directly into the schools and colleges get out get questions from them live and be answered live and it's amazing you can see the kind of the young people are a little bit a little bit potentially a little bit cold so nuclear at the beginning of the other at the end of the hour the very the very welcome when I'm asking lots of questions and quite excited about the industry and the opportunities that it does so it's it's all around yeah it's all around raising that it's ultimately around social value and bringing social mobility and and bringing new approaches to nuclear employers to to help them to engage with with young people the local community and the public in general really it's it's all around raising the profile of of the nuclear industry and the planning employers and it anyplace in the UK I would like to help across across the world if possible at some point but but it's it's mainly in the UK that we've been doing that for that for the time being when you visit schools have you found people who are just excited about trying to do something about say climate change or energy security and they get excited about learning what nuclear can do and those yeah definitely one thing I find really strange and I'm still finding it is the the biggest barriers I'm finding in the schools is the teachers themselves and finding that the teachers are they're not anti-nuclear that I can't I can't I can't say that but they're not this did devolve was I've had one we wanted to broadcast to a school in Liverpool two weeks ago I think or three weeks ago and and the teacher decided for the pupils that they wouldn't be interested in nuclear so I'll talk about doing the broadcast and I thought that was a little bit it's a little bit sad really and it's it's a little bit concerning that the teachers making that decision for for the young people and that event is an example we did it to three other schools at the same time in the same area and and yeah the the you know I think young people doing a lot smarter than people given the credit for particularly know that they've grown up with the internet and Google and being able to find out information and I think that they don't just take perceptions of things they've seen on a on a movie or a film or they've been told from from from the poets they'll actually go and research things and lock it up and met they're all mined and I'm always taking about that some of the some of the questions that they ask and and yeah definitely from a younger generation point of view the the environment is very high up on the on the agenda and and they do do in the men I start to see nuclear is a big part of that yeah you said that there's kind of been an attitude shift within the UK what kind of things have been happening in terms of I don't know general public perception news media are there any events sort of cause people to to really look more deeply into nuclear and I think there's been there's lots of people and lots of things that have gone on in the nuclear initiative from an advocacy party view you've got the the young generation network which is part of the nuclear institute of the last the last few years they've been very vocal and very prominent in getting out and doing physical events starting to use social media and and different ways of different approaches of of getting people to look at nuclear in a new light I think they probably it's very difficult to pinpoint one thing there's there's lots of things and lots of changes and yeah you've got to give credit to the to the YGN the NIA and San and SSG in particular in the UK with the third change is particularly definitely from a social media point of view it's in a lot more a lot more positive positive responses and then you're also starting to see if somebody does put something and to nuclear out though people are not afraid now to jump in the conversation and kind of fight the good fight if you will I think in the UK the I think a green recovery paper I think that must be about 12 months ago now and and that that included nuclear in a big way in the paper I think that that's helped a lot on that state people locking it to nuclear and what it's all about and I think it's very difficult to pin it down to one thing but there's lots of it's a series of lots of things over the last four or five years which is which is helped me industry what what I would like to see now and work and work I see the kind of things or from an advocacy point of view there's a lot of people doing some really really good things and and I think that nuclear is going to be part of the agenda going forward we're I think the big push needs to be now is to build the workforce to deliver on the promises and nuclear and I think that's whether that's where the effort more now is is rather at the top kind of institution level I think that's where now the nuclear employees themselves are going to have to to come out and engage more with the the local the local community and and the public at a large and relay showcase the work that they're doing the jobs that they're offering along the long term well pay careers that are offering nuclear and and and the variety of the variety of that the the industry needs to really really open itself out now and not be a close shell isn't as been as it has been far from last 25 years maybe. You've talked about talking to young people getting them into nuclear but you yourself transferred to nuclear after a significant time in another industry are you seeing much in the way of mid-career people saying you know I'm not going as far as fast as I want to or I want to really do something different and not as much there's definitely the definitely is that the definitely is people who are who are interested in in kind of real-in in the career maybe they need to upskill and and do that with the risk and as just I think I think they when you do look at the range of roles and skills needed in nuclear there's I don't know 80% of them would be not more or voluptable for industries and sectors that are ongoing I think the short answer to that is in the UK the the NSSG of bugs that are sector jump. been trying to get people to sector jump from from other, from other industries into, into nuclear and and. Yeah, still not happened or happening as much as much as we would like to do this definitely interest and I think as. Probably as things and we're probably going to see this across the globe, I think as, as things change, I think that energy professionals are going to start to. To move over from fossil fuels to to nuclear and renewables and anything else that that's kind of going to change, I think. I read some of the other thing that's 14 and a half million energy professionals across the world and less than a million and then currently working the nuclear sector. But that that that obviously the demand for workers in nuclear is going to is going to be growing. To particular, we've seen things like China's going to be building 150 nuclear power plants and they're going to hell other work force to get to get them built same with the UK Canada are making big promises even even Australia now are starting to consider. Building as in as eight s and I think I read so you're going to see that I think you will you will find that you'll still have the you still have the same amount of energy professionals but a lot a lot of them will will consider jumping from fossil fuel. And it just sectors into into nuclear and over clean energy so you talked about being a project manager and nuclear and you focus what kind of areas have you focused your career on so far. So, so predominantly in decommissioning a started life at Cellarfield and work there's a project engineer working on some mechanical handling equipment some flasks and so the project engineer in project manager of those. And then moved on to work in more than design space that was covering decommissioning and some energy work as well but pretty much in a design house a little bit of sight work more from a sort of a point of view and an observation but. Yeah very much in design and it's done of work in a you know, in a manufacturing company, we would be manufacturing crane shield doors. A lot of the M&E that goes into nuclear nuclear stations know that that covered that big covered decommissioning that covered defense and it covered energy as well. And then more recently as I mentioned we've come in this shall work initially started working in the defense sector. And then now actually done a full round circle bucket celler fields upon them from a business case point of view so it's. I suppose from a project management point of view it's been quite very did the type of work that I've done and because I think I definitely try and use the fact that because I'm not an engineer and not too much of a technical person. To me it doesn't really matter what the project is the principles are always the same it's all the rounds. What are our outcomes what we'll ultimately try and achieve what's our score how do we bring the right skills together how do we're more to better team and how do we ultimately. deliver to a common goal so so I think that from a from me I think a good project manager can can turn it on to deliver any project. Yeah, the US one of the real weaknesses I think is is cost and delivery and you know schedule delivery performance. So I suspect that some of that is due to the project management challenges have you thought about the opportunities in in your country to manage projects in the new construction world. Do you mean have I considered taking a role on as a project manager in one of the new buildings is that what you're thinking about what you would have to do to maybe upscale yourself to be a new build project manager. Yeah, definitely I think there's there's well, heaps of points see which is the biggest construction site going the biggest new belt going on in the UK at the moment, do us. When that kicked off a couple of years ago there was lots of opportunities particularly for project managers to go working down your Bristol and deliver on the projects and that's still the case. Personally, I didn't take one of them rolls on from. As well as I feel what I was doing at the time I didn't really. Progressing that route, I think the people who are working on Hinkler Point C are going to get some. Because you're not built a nuclear power plant for such a long time, I think that the project managers who are going to be working down there now. They're going to put the cells in in a really, really good position when size well see. Whole fluffing is cross gets the go ahead which will follow pretty soon after whole flea and then any new builds as well. So I think the people who are working on the sites in the moment are going to get in. A unique, very, very good learning from experience and to be able to bring that on to. The new builds themselves from from my point of view. And I do think about this kind of quite often somewhat my day job is still as a project manager. What I'm doing with we've getting to nuclear is very much. Even in some weekends and it kind of in the main really with it being a website, it ticks along in the background and I kind of. If anybody needs any help up, I can back and point them in the right direction. But from my point of view, I think the biggest value I bring to the industry is definitely from a delivery. A delivery role and a delivery perspective and it's something I've been thinking about myself recently around. Yeah, word-to-word best fit into that from an overall picture part of you, particularly thinking around all the amount of delivery that's going to be having to be done over the next. Of the next 10 20 years in this sector. So yeah, it is from my point of view. I suppose I'm just stood up, but a bit of a crossroads at the moment and need to make a decision on which we want to go. So you mentioned the activities that the young generations group has been successfully doing and raising some attention. Are you actively involved in the young generation group or just watching what they're doing? Yeah, more of a well, I'm kind of a, I suppose, active, active watcher of your will. So I don't, I'm too old to be in the in the young generation. I don't classes young anymore. So I couldn't be part of that. But even at the time, no, I've not never been an active participant of the YGNO. However, I do I do have a lot of conversations with the guys. I do promote the stuff as much as I can and really help them out from time to time. For example, they've, they have a national speaking competition, which I've been, I've been a geodrama numerous events. I've spoken at webinars and things like so. Yeah, I've not been a, I've never been an active member, but I've been a, I've definitely not just been an active supporter of what they're doing. Yeah, interesting because for a long time, when I got in a nuclear and I started attending DNS meetings, I was one of the youngest people there. And even about the time they finally started the young generations group, I was already on both the age limit. But I knew some of the founders and I convinced them that I could be a young generation. So I think I was a member all the way up until my first grandchild was born. Yeah, there's a guy for lifting the UK. He's an honorary member of the YGNO. And I think he he's any 70s now and he's still, he's still a, he's still a YGNO member. Yes. Yeah, they do good work and there's some, it's, yeah, they do, yeah, they've done some, the cop 26 that's just gone on. They've been, they've been fantastic. They've been all over the place. I've seen YouTube, music videos. I've seen the website on the buses. It's been driving around the city centers and yeah, they've did really, really, really, I know they've been planning and working out on that part for at least 12 months down. Yeah, the credit credit to the guys and what they've done and then definitely a big pass to why, why nuclear has got, got pretty much a seat at the table when it comes to cop this time around. Yeah, when, when the young generations group in, in North America was founded, there was seven young people that founded it right now of the seven. I've kind of kept track of their performance. One is now the director general of the world nuclear association. One is at the INL charge of integrated power systems development. And one is a full professor at the University of Wisconsin. So they've done right well for themselves. I guess being an active member of YGN gives us a good leadership experience. Yeah, that's, that's one, as I'm speaking to people is definitely younger people as they're looking at embarking a career in nuclear. That's one of the recommendations I make that they did pretty quickly, get themselves becoming at least a member of the YGN and getting involved in it. And pretty much immediately they've developed a sales and network. And as you said, that network is kind of with you for like your career and it is such an important thing. And as you said, there's a, there's a bit of a side benefit you do tend to find the people who are more, a more proactive when it comes to those kind of initiatives tend to do well, well in a very arena as well. It's true. Now was, was, was getting the nuclear, do you help people build networks and figure out different ways to help the best of careers? Yes, well, what I've found from us, so from an individual point of view, I'm happy to have a conversation with anybody who wants to find out more about the nuclear industry and whether there's a role for them in more often than not. It's quite a quick, quick, in quite a quick conversation, we can assess whether in a lot of instances, going back to sector jumpers, people have got the skills and the knowledge I may have a quick look at the CV and then, yeah, recommend that they start applying for jobs and sometimes I'll get feedback from them asking questions. But then the, the other times what I have found is this part of the website, I do career stories, so I've interviewed some quite, quite the prominent people, particularly in the UK and nuclear industry around their telecracker stories, if they've got into nuclear and at the end of them, each of them have offered their help to anybody who is interested at asking them questions and what I'm always pushing people when it comes from a network and particularly in nuclear, how, how willing everybody is, is to speak to people and regardless of if somebody's got a director and the title, don't be afraid to reach out to them, particularly on LinkedIn and I'm finding that by doing that, the idea of getting responses in the aggregate and the help with the need and it may even be just as simple as reaching out to the hiring manager or somebody, they know he works a particular company asking them for help and I think that one of the big things about nuclear is that you're joining a job, but you're joining the community at the same time and it's true of everybody admin, anyway, that they're always willing to throw as willing to take a little bit of time to help anybody out US, it was remotely interested in looking at a career-off and in this sector. Yeah, that's something I've always found as well. Part of it, I think, is that the industry, at least up until now, has never been terribly competitive in that most of the people who work in nuclear have a particular area of where their market, they're the only people in the market. So I hope that the industry remains as open and as collaborative as it is today as we have new entrants coming in. Yeah, hopefully so. Yeah, he's definitely one of the big, big benefits of working in the clear. Tell me what you think about the role of SMRs and large reactors and do they have different roles? I think the, well, to kind of cut to it from a start of it, there's no SMRs are still in development, so the moments are, and obviously there's some big promises there and a lot of confidence around them, but at the moment we only have the large scale reactors that are actually products that we can start to manufacture and build and development. I think from a UK perspective, starting there, we need, we've got a hint of point C, hopefully size will see, follows it, it'd be great if we could get a... least one more online, at least in the pipeline from a large scale reactor. And then that will give us, because I think they're the small much other reactors are at least a decade away, which is in the scheme of things not a massive amount of time. But however, we need to be in that time, we could get at least one, if not two, over large scale reactors online in the UK to give us that base load of energy. And then the SMR has come with her to be more localized and kind of as far as the kind of icing on the care can you do well? I think SMR is going forward as they do deliver on the promises, which is looking likely the will. I think they're from a public point of view. I think I can see how you're going to be an easier sell from a public perception point of view. And they ultimately sell from a less capital investment and that kind of thing. I do think, because the more commercial endeavors than the previous large scale ones, I've been did there's going to be a lot more effort into marketing and working around that. Just one of my little concerns that I hope that I did see one of the SMR kind of development companies tweets something a couple of months ago. It kind of a hope that they don't go down this three on a large scale point of view. But the SMR is to work with the large scale reactors that we've got online at the moment that we can extend and also the new ones as well. It shouldn't be selling an SMR. It shouldn't be the detriment of any over-existing nuclear technology. I think that we don't want to create a nuclear versus new nuclear scenario. It needs to be that it is a clean, reliable energy source. And the small man, Jimon Gillette, can the other place in the market and they can build on that. And I think, as you get into it, they'll start to sell a lot of them if they're successful with them. But it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be to the detriment of the existing nuclear fleet and China market themselves have been safer or whatever else. It's, yeah, I just talked to that. That doesn't happen. Yeah, my belief is that smaller and micro-reactors are simply a way to extend the product line of nuclear so that they're available to more customers. I mean, it takes a special kind of customer to be able to put in 3,200 megawatts of power generation. And history is proved as shown that building one unit per site is just not economical. It's much better to build at least two on each side because the second one is always cheaper than the first one because you have so many things that you don't have to do over again when you're building sites. And of course, if you have more units on the site, you can share some costs like security and a few other things that you just can't do with just one on a site. Now, the UK has kind of a special circumstance in that all but one of your operating reactors are the gas-cooled reactors that have some limitations, at least so far has been discussed in public on how far you can extend their life. How long do you think the AGR fleet's going to be after it? Very difficult question to answer from an exact standpoint. But I don't think long enough. I think it's probably the answer. I think there was hope that, yeah, you'd be able to extend them kind of in the intuitive which is not possible. But maybe you're starting to see them come offline now and looking at it by 2030. We're doing well if we've got many of them or any of them still running at that time, I think. That's actually a difficult question. There's things changing all the time. But yeah, they're not going to be around forever. We're definitely getting to the last kind of the last years of the production. So have you started is getting to nuclear also going to help people who are, whose job is changing and when their operating plant goes away, it seems like there's going to be a pretty significant number of employees who are no longer going to be employed in operating facilities. Decovisioning just doesn't take as much. Yeah, that is me. People are operating those. No, so that's actually one of the things that I've had discussions with. There is not just getting to nuclear, but there is with the NSSG as I mentioned before, which is a government body and sound that's just, again, government body. I know that this is something that they've been looking at for a while now and the risk-plans in place. And I've had brief conversations around it. There's any help that I can provide to help support that and support us promote. Support the skills that these guys have gotten and whether we can either, I suppose, have they willing to relocate or for others, there's other jobs on nuclear plants have not come at any skills and apply them to, I don't know, the pattern maritime industry are over, or over-powered production are over, or over-plans as well. So it is something that's on. I suppose it's still early at the moment, but it is something that's in consideration and obviously the zoonings involved and what obviously is quite a topical thing at the moment that's done going and there is a real, one thing I will say there is a real appetite to look after those people and not just kind of shut the plant and kind of wave goodbye and leads in the long, there's a real appetite to try and try and utilize those skills and try and find them either by rescaling up-skilling or by transferring them into a very, and it's to carry on to working life techniques. So Andrew, I'd like to offer you the opportunity to talk about anything that we haven't covered, about sure, get into nuclear and your kind of side-life job, I don't need to ask you much more about your day job. Your nighttime job seems like it's a pretty big job, a pretty significant contribution to the industry, but tell us, you got anything else you want to talk about? I think that, yeah, I suppose on, we've getting to nuclear and we're initially starting off as a little say and then the, yeah, starting to build a bit of a business beyond that now and starting to support nuclear employees now, we were using the partner network and I built to support them in attraction campaigns or engagement with young people, I'll just simply raising the profile and looking at different approaches that they can take to market themselves within the industry. So I am looking to, as I said before, I'm kind of, yeah, my value and what I can bring to the, to the nuclear industry is definitely on the delivery side and trying to get, trying to stay focused on that and delivery that, but I am, separately now looking to try and build an organization, excuse me, on the back of, on the back and getting to nuclear and what we're doing and I suppose from, from a thing to discuss is just, yeah, I'm just looking for, service apart and further helping anybody is interested in getting involved in getting to nuclear supply and working with working with what it's doing and how it can help bring a different approach to other young nuclear business or, or yourself as an individual. It's been more than interested to have a conversation and see whether there's ways to, to, I suppose, bring it forward. I see, I see getting to nuclear anymore that I do, we're getting to nuclear with working for the nuclear industry and it'd be great if, if more nuclear employees can, can get beyond that. I'm partnering with getting to nuclear and it'll enable us then to do more as an industry, particularly in the, in the, the areas that you care of that, that nuclear, nuclear power plants are, are, are going to be sated. We can, we can focus on that and really bring, true social mobility and bring jobs to nuclear jobs to people that may not have, have considered them in the past. I think one thing we've got in there in the nuclear industry which is in law is in the UK is, so I'm not just in nuclear in the UK, is the social value act. So every project that is delivered, you need to demonstrate a social value and there's, there's a number of ways that you can do that and, and employment and skills training and jobs and social mobility is, is a big part of that that you can demonstrate social value and I think that everything, everything we're trying to do, we're trying to do through getting to nuclear is all around, bringing that, bringing that social value and bringing that benefits to the, the added benefits to the communities around where we delivery projects and, and where we're ultimately going to be providing, providing jobs and building a community really. So yeah, from, from my point of view, yeah, I'm just going to carry on doing that in the background and going on, but I'm hopeful that, um, yeah, all those, others will start to support, support, and get a bit on it and we can, we can build something, we can build something that, for the industry that can help us to, to really, really change the perceptions of the industry and bring new approaches to engaging with people and make it more attractive and people really. As I said before, anybody who visits the site should, should not feel that they're excluded from nuclear and I think that that should really, if you can get that message out to as many people as possible, we shouldn't really have too much trouble when it comes to trying to recruit and build a workforce to, to deliver on the, on the, on the nuclear power plants and, and the other, the other advanced nuclear stuff that we're doing as well, we shouldn't be able to, we should be able to resolve that and deliver on the promises that, that nuclear is making at the moment. That sounds like a great way to end. Thank you very much for taking the time to visit the atomic show and the industry should, thank you for your efforts in trying to make it better. The industry needs more people to help you, but also lots of other activities, lots of other creativity. Many different approaches, I think is gonna, gonna help us succeed better. And my personal belief is that one of the, the profession, one of the skills that the industry needs more than anything is marketing. So yeah, so we've got plenty of engineers, but we need some people that really know how to talk to people, how to tell the stories, how to create good information. And also we shouldn't be just, you know, talking about it as education, because there's, there's lots of highly educated people who think that they know everything, they need to know that nuclear and it's all bad. So what we need to do is tell our story around the world and get people excited about what nuclear can burn. That's great. You put it back, I've been hiking, yeah, that's the, yeah. So part of my, yeah, part of what I've built with the partner network is, then partners will be marketing companies, advertising companies, and they'll basically put nuclear employers in front of the people that we should be in front of. And then obviously they do nuclear industry, the nuclear industry itself needs to pass on the messages of the technology itself, the work that's going on, the uses of nuclear and ultimately how it fits within a clean energy mix going forward. All right, take care. Talk to you soon. Thanks a lot. Thank you, bye. Hope you enjoyed that show. It's been a while since we talked. When I recorded this, I used a new tool called Colin. It's an app available. iPhone allows me to set up a call really quickly, really easily. One of the features that Colin has and I'm going to try to use sometime in the future is the ability for audience participation. You can also listen to the recording live. We actually had, without any advertising at all, several people dropped by to listen to this show. One of the things that's kept me busy and prevented me from recording is that I have joined with Valerie Gardner and a couple of other Silicon Valley investors to set up nucleation capital and we're doing some interesting stuff. We've actually closed our first round of financing and started investing in advanced nuclear companies or probably one of the only venture capital firms that focuses on advanced nuclear with a little bit of flair for deep decarbonization programs, direct air capture and those kinds of things. This is going to be taking a little bit of my time. Won't be recording quite as many shows as I once did, but hopefully we'll try to get at least one show out every couple of weeks. There's lots of interesting things happening in the nuclear universe and I hope you'll all come back and listen to the atomic show. Tell your friends about the show. Give us a review on iTunes. Whatever it takes, please help us get this going again, get people listening and talking participating and if you have someone you'd like to hear, send us a line, try to recommend those people. You can always get in touch with us via the Atomic Insights website looking forward to more interaction talking to the audience again, getting people to get excited about this amazing energy source given to us by nature, God, whoever you want to say, that energy packed into the uranium, thorium and plutonium atoms is going to help save the world to celebrate the return of the atomic show. I thought maybe I'd share with you the full version of Better Way. Jeff Smith created this song specifically for the Atomic Show. Enjoy. If we own day agree, if we all could see, if someone stood up right now, if we all could shout out loud, we'll live it all. We're all the time, we're breathing in from the sky, can all be gone before we know could we say yes instead of oh no, there's a way, yeah, way such a better way today, today, reach your voice and the world there's a better way, today there's a better way. There's so much this energy could do, and I know something really scared to, but if we're looking excited to the very core, we can see how this could bring so much more, it's so very safe, yes, time has shown, how this brave power, sure has grown, the output down, I'm pretty greedy for the sake of the world, let's all agree, there's a way and there's such a better way today, today, reach your voice, tell the world there's a better way, today there's a better way, there's a way, there's a way, a way such a better way, today, today, reach your voice, tell the world there's a better way, today there's a better way. The rising up from every land is common, cried from every common man, my chief forward to a day in the energy from a better way, if we all want to be agreed, if we all could see, that's the better way, is right now, just everyone's joining and singing out loud, there's a way, a way such a better way today, today, reach your voice, tell the world there's a better way, today there's a better way, there's a way, a way such a better way, today, today, reach your voice, tell the world there's a better way, today, today, today, now reach your voice, tell the world there's a better way, the way is the outer way.