Jigar and Jake

You may be surprised to see this in your downloads, but the atomic show is back and it's finally time for another atomic show. Yes, I know I've been quiet recently, but things have been kind of busy here and I've been trying to figure out exactly how to help advance nuclear prosper by lining up funds for that many of you may have known I've joined nucleation capital as a managing member and we're having some real progress there. Today I want to introduce you or actually both of these guests have been on the atomic show before. I have with me Jigorshaw who is the founder and CEO of Generate Capital and also famously known as one of the guys who figured out how to get solar really deployed by coming up with a zero down financing mechanism for solar city, I believe is that right? Yeah, well and thanks for having me on. I'm the only the president of Generate Capital not the CEO, but but founder nonetheless and the other guest you'll hear is Jake DeWitt a co-founder and the CEO of Oclo a company that is located in Sunnyville, California and believe it or not a California based company that has become the first company to apply for a combined operating license from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission for a non-lightwater reactor and the first one to apply for a COL since about 2009 So welcome Jake and congratulations on your recent announcement of filing the application with the NRC Thanks a bunch of odd. I'm excited to be here with you guys today Some of you may remember that may remember that I talked to Jigors several years ago specifically October of 2015 and Jigors offered some real tough love advice for the nuclear industry to do things differently and to recognize that our vastly superior technological product doesn't mean it mean anything if we can't get out there and find customers and applications and ways to get people to recognize the value so one of the things that Jigors mentioned during his our talk the last time was he was somewhat Challenge by the fact that he didn't think any mode led him and his company go out and buy a nuclear plant during the succeeding four years Oaklow has been busily trying to make a liar out of both Jigors and me and has come up with ways to address some of the challenges that Jigors and I talked about From now on, I'm going to try to be as quiet as possible and let Jigger and Jake talk about how Oaklow is addressing some of the Challenges and suggestions that Jigger mentioned in our last conversation back in 2015 Jigger, how about if you start? Thanks, Rod. You know, I uh, I love being wrong. So I'm I'm certainly happy to be wrong here. I think the broad brush strokes of my conversation with you last time was just that the nuclear energy industry doesn't really have a built-in Group of people who are What you would call an industry association that's promoting The companies right? I mean then any eye as we all know are largely funded by the electric utility companies and they have A lot of other masters to serve right not just nuclear so while they may be friendly to nuclear They also have a lot of coal plants maybe natural gas plants were noble energy Plants these days as well as rate payer Issues right and that having a group of companies like Oaklow and others Being really a pure industry association to push nuclear was essential for nuclear success and you know to really educate lawmakers and and other essential stakeholder Yeah, I think I think that's actually a really good point and something that I think is actually evolved Fortunately to some degree in the last few years because I think what you identified is exactly correct Which is the fact is the the industry that is happening that is emerging today That is going to be very impactful tomorrow The designers and developers are both going to look quite a bit different in terms of the companies and you know We're obviously doing that and I think one thing that you know has been encouraging and I think supportive and enabling to I think voicing and articulating The important there's support around and advocating for change around some of the important items that I think has been Policy used to regulatory issues that kind of face Some of the activities around deploying new and advanced vision technologies into these new organizations as well That have popped up and I think stepped up to the plate and stepped up to carry the mantle for these groups So you know groups like the nuclear industry council and the nuclear innovation alliance Kind of emerged I'd say and that honestly kind of around the time they exist a little bit for you guys last shaded but you know everything was so nation at that point Yeah, I think that's great. I mean in general You know part of this is also just making this very inter you know and multi-disciplinary where you know many of us were engineers and we come out things really from a very technical modeling approach and And when you really think about this this requires a lot more than those skill sets and some of that's just hope and optimism Like when you pass these hundred percent clean energy mandates Around the country right when I talk to people on the ground. They don't really talk about a hopeful You know message around nuclear being a part of that outside of extending the life of existing nuclear plants I think if people could talk about You know, Oklahoma and say look, you know, maybe it won't be deployed next year But it's coming and there's a lot of years here between now in 2050 I think that just opens up the space for people To get super excited and so part of what I'd love Your advice on is like so I don't know these other groups all I know is any I And I've talked to them fairly extensively But I'd love for you to talk us through who these other groups are And what role they play because Like what part of what I'm concerned about is that I think third way and breakthrough institute well You know fine organizations are generally not industry organizations Yeah, I know it's a good point and I think What you know what I think still is back in I'm going to answer your question and Exactly just a second but I think it gets the optimism side of it And I think for one thing that's important for us is is harmonizing actual time scales that matter and cost scales that matter And you know one of the I'd say core CCs of starting Okula was the idea that there's no reason nuclear has to be Big slow and expensive. It can be a lot different than that And I think today we've been able to actually Show that now and now that there's actually proof points on that and there's still work to go Obviously as impossible other groups spend billion or more dollars to get to And when you can leverage things that are you know on a much faster time scale and a hundred times or more more Capital efficient all the sudden I think we can start to have a narrative that looks that that is different that helps people realize in the advanced reactor technologies It's a little different. They're going to be different going into markets and yeah and to kind of bridges into your question jigger Which is these other groups and you know I think What's interesting is going back to remember in 2013 there was some discussion Around recognizing a need to stimulate and promote innovative thinking and nuclear the irony was that was being very institutionalized And I think really innovative things aren't institutionalized But you know that was kind of the mindset that existed at the time and you know still frankly You know it's pervasive today and exist broadly today, but for us as we look at you know the the landscape and what was happening then and now new companies that were coming forward Had a different set of I would say goals and also needs that right and so how do you foster sort of I'd say Innovation or new endeavors or new enterprises and nuclear and people recognize that There's a lot of activity starting to come forward with these advanced reactor technologies and You know the interesting thing is a lot of these technologies have been very well demonstrated historically We're moving them into the modern business climate the modern markets And I think what happened was you know there's some groups that started to realize some people started to realize hey these entrepreneurs Need some they're playing a really important role possibly bringing truly transformative technologies the market We need to figure out ways to support that so there's some groups came out of that like the nuclear innovation Alliance Which I think has been the groups that punched Truly far above what it's weight would seem to be I'd say the more the federal policy level But that included significant activities around legislation that passed with significant bipartisan support That were aimed at you know, it's stimulating innovation and stimulating regulatory modernization and perhaps even more impactful from that was their work in painting a picture of how We could approach We as an industry and how the regulator could approach the industry licensing new plant and trying to plant seeds of changing the paradigm of Out was thought before looking at how You know as we look at the ways and which nuclear technology are going to be financed or built out starting to starting to actually have Conversations about that and you know the the other group here that is I think Interdand you know new innovation Alliance started and really nurtured and growth by Ashley fine-end who now is the director Enric the nuclear reactor Innovation Center out at Idaho National Labs You know one of the things I thought was well she obviously built the platform for that and it's now a group that you know I think going through in kind of evaluating where it's going to be going with its With his leadership, but I think it plays an important role In terms of addressing some of those things and thinking about things more from the pure view of the developer Which like you said, you're so important the other side is the US nuclear industry council Which is a group that You know, I think well, I did existed before how to say this current wave reactor development innovation was occurring, but they really caught on to the sense of wanting to support And promote the advanced reactor technologies and advocate on the developer side about that, you know So they've been an important voice. I think in bringing together parts of the industry But also the different stakeholders and supporting really important efforts from some of the I'd Think of them as grassroots organizations that had sprouted up to really Articulate voice for nuclear things like generation atomic or entities like on-board public labs Which have been doing a lot of work to I would say You know make sure the field defer tile and start having a broader industry Kind of centric narrative that advanced reactors are happening and they're happening soon and helping build some optimistic pictures Now that there's some first points that's only going to amplify their message, which I think is really encouraging And you know not in too many eyes credit. They've also Started recognizing the importance here and also realize that the future is going to be different We're going to have to recognize it's going to be different It's not going to be a utility-centric approach in the same way that we think of because it's complete And I think that's a really important change in the paradigm for sure I totally agree with you I just think that in general as someone who's been around the block for 20 years on You know clean energy Advocacy while also building significant companies You know like part of this is just the nuances of who's you know saying what like so I've Taught a lot with any eye for instance, right? But if the solar industry won a partner to go to the hill right now on the stimulus less bill for instance, it's potentially getting through. I think they would talk to NEI. I don't think they would talk to the nuclear innovation alliance. And the problem with NEI is that none of the members of NEI have committed to buying your product. And so they're not actually advocates for you. They're sort of like, we're general advocates for nuclear innovation and clean energy. But they're not like, no, we actually need this specific thing. So so nuclear innovation alliance is sort of in the middle pitching those things. But they're not actually the official group that the solar energy industry association or the American Wind Energy Association coordinates with. Yeah, right. I'll do not jump in here briefly just to let you know that the nuclear industry council, the NIC, is closer to what I think you're looking at, Jeter, in that they are a group of people who sell products, mostly made of suppliers or want to be suppliers to the nuclear industry. And they have been quite active on the legislative and lobbying front alongside NEI sometimes, but often the interest of NEI are not the same as the interest of the suppliers. Yeah, I totally agree with you. You're right that they're often not the same. I mean, you're exactly right. Like these other groups, I think, are really important entities. And I think, for example, where a lot of the stuff has to come out is companies that are doing things very differently and very innovatively. And that obviously is a different kind of sometimes a challenge and a threat to utilities, even though at the end of the day, it's a product that they probably would benefit from or at least a business model that would possibly benefit from interacting with. And I think that the unnatural evolution where things are going, to be a product that we can be able to provide. And I think that, you know, for example, right, our business model is to build on and operate these things. It's important for us to have the insights that come from that to tie into our design side. And that's, I think, a radical change in terms of the equation, in terms of how we can deliver a product to people who want it, as opposed to through the utility process, which the end of the day would never come up with a streamlined application process that we came up with or an approach like the things that we're doing or even financing structures that we can come up with. So yeah, like having the right advocates to be able to articulate the things is important. And I think what's interesting is, you know, we're going to see, I think it's important that groups like, and I see, and I get in touch in those areas because they can't advocate on the side of where things go. And I think it's also important for any eye to recognize how things are going to be moving. And also become that. I mean, we are members of an AI. And I think they are responsive to some of these things. And it is a challenge now and how things are going to be different going forward. And so that's interesting today and nuclear is it's a pretty significant inflection point. Because I would tend pretty strongly that with the fleet of power plants to use that term looks like in 10 years, it's going to be very, very different in terms of organizational structure, technological approaches, business model, who the owners and operators are, and then what it looks like today. And so, you know, having groups that can understand that, but also not worry too much about that because it's hard to predict future. And just realize that it's more about advocating the broad and the benefits here and looking at how technologies can address some of the fundamental. There's a diversity in a suite and array of products that's coming forward. Your vision is the fundamental backbone to it. It can really help, I think, diversify what these look like and have that voice to say that it is important. And I think figuring out an area, and this is honestly, Jaker, we're really great to talk to you and get your help too is connecting some of these other groups with those associations. At the end of the day, I think the goals are the same. So yeah, Jake, I mean, I think one of the things that I'm concerned about is, you know, it seems like the nuclear innovation alliance is, you know, got a full-time person in Alex Gilbert, but I think the head of it is now at Idaho National Laboratories. And then the nuclear industry council also feels, you know, lightly staffed and so then people sort of, you know, rely on any eye. But, you know, there's just some tension inside there to give an example. You know, I've been approached by the Canadian government around what we should do in green stimulus for, you know, post-cronavirus. Part of what they really want to push is figuring out how to take these remote communities and help them with something other than diesel. Your product is perfect for that. But it requires putting in what I suggested was a feed inter-off, basically, to fund it, right? Because doing bilateral deals with hydro-cobac or Ontario power is really difficult. And, you know, having a feed inter-off that's sponsored by the government that says, look, all these, you know, northern communities that have large loads that are being currently provided by diesel, you know, at a dollar or a kilowatt hour, if someone can come in at 30 cents, like there's a feed inter-off, and you can make how much profit you want, as long as you get at 30 cents. To me, a lot of the members of any area are going to be pushing that kind of policy. They're just not because they're utilities, right? And I don't see how, you know, nuclear innovation alliance or the industry council is going to do that. And then if you go to the Caribbean, another place would be great for your product. I don't know how those guys are going to do that either, right? There's a tremendous amount of work with the State Department and around whether we're going to be promoting fission in some of these countries where we don't really trust the government, even though there really isn't a national security issue with your product. I'm sure people will assume there is. Now you're right, and I think that's an area where these groups benefit from help, honestly. And for example, the way you're thinking about this is, you know, it's a matter of I think these groups have some ability to tap into those capabilities and those, I'd say, you know, opportunities really. And ideally, any eyes going to be paying attention to some of these things too going forward, but there is, there are gaps here. And this is where having people with the mindset of exactly what you're saying, Jigger, is helpful. And honestly, it's where, you know, where you can help us too with these things, that would be very helpful. And what I mean by that is, right, like, some of these groups would benefit from actually probably talking to you and having a conversation about some of these things to help plant and verify the information on these areas. There is a budgetary constraint on some of these groups. Obviously, any eyes on the lion's share by far, but it is here. I mean, I guess what I would say, and this is a continuation of our last podcast with Rod, was that that fundamental I think the nuclear energy industry in 2015 did not know what I was talking about. And I think today what you're saying is they do. They're just, you know, putting all the pieces in place, which I think is fantastic. But I just think that there's, for a long time, there was a narrative that the solar industry or basically a bunch of organizations that want free money from the government, and that nuclear is awesome because we don't need free money from the government. And I think the reality is that we all agree that everyone needs free money from the government, that energy innovation doesn't work in a vacuum, right? Like you need grants from the Department of Energy. You need support from the US military. You need like some of these things to happen. And then when you're building your 100th facility, yeah, you might be able to get off of the government DOL, but we all actually need the government to support innovation because paid off stuff is cheaper than not paid off stuff. I mean, that's always going to be the case, right? Old infrastructure that's already been paid off, and when the bonds are already paid off, is always going to be cheaper on a variable cost basis than new stuff that you're trying to push into the grid. And actually what I would say at risk of maybe sounding, well, at risk of aggravating some folks is the irony of what you just said is interesting. And it's, well, it's just ironic. The nuclear industry, if by and large, especially in the advanced reactor side, is yearning and solely driving to a fault, I think, for government funding for development. They're focusing it on the wrong areas. So to let me, the criticism at what, when it's all we're doing, which is a clear, tried and true model, that honestly, the nuclear industry needs to be promoting and finding for themselves and building a coalition to support, so we're trying to focus on and often we're the only voice in the room talking about deployment support. Because at the end of the day, you know, actually building out the technologies and doing the things that are the investments that DOE's making right now, I don't think they pay many dividends because it continues a call to, honestly, of, of slowness of bloatedness, and of not really thinking and moving the ball aggressively forward. I don't need money to get to where I've gotten to. I've been purely, probably funded. This can happen. But to get to the deployment scales, which is where it really makes a difference, that's where we need the government to be finding the right leverage to poll that really helped accelerate that. It clearly worked with solar. It can clearly work for nuclear. We just have to figure out how to do that. But right now, too much of the industry is focused on finding, you know, the next grant cycle to support them doing R&D on their design or developing their design. And honestly, that drives me crazy because we're missing the bigger picture. If the goal that people are so excited about is building one or two, the wrong goal, we failed. Right? I mean, we've got to be talking about building thousands. So figuring out the right policy levers to put in place for that is so important. And this is where it is difficult, honestly, with broader industry groups because to be frank, a lot of the industry can't raise in the private market can. So just accept that fact and letting that sort of sort itself forward and create the right incentives on the back end. So there's actually market incentives not subsidy than grants to develop. Now that's honestly where one of the few voices of say that. But, you know, I think the interesting thing is we're the first of submit a license application. We're the first to get to this point. We've done it on private funding. We've shown we can do it relatively quickly and, affordably, you know, if we've been 100 times cheaper than the last group to get to a similar state point, clearly there's an avenue where this model can work successfully. So don't worry about this part. Let's focus on the bigger part and in your right. Like, that's a really important area where as we look at, just like you said, feed in tariffs, investments, tax credits, production tax credits, there's a whole bunch of different tools and top of those that we should be thinking about. And right now, people are only starting to talk about. And so that's one of my biggest challenges, I think, that I throw to the industry groups, which we got to be thinking more aggressively about that. We have a clear path for what we're trying to do and trying to scale. Honestly, independent of having more of those, but if we want to accelerate the scales so that 2050 isn't so daunting for folks, then we need to have those tools. Where do they, Rod? I agree with Jake that we need those kinds of deployment tools. And I think that in some cases, the advocacy needs to come from people like Jake, and say, this is how we can get things done. This is how we can move forward. And I'm happy to see that nuclear is exiting the domination by scientists who just want to develop knowledge. And I like engineers myself. I'm sure who want to apply the science. And there is a tremendous, as Jake has discovered, a tremendous library of knowledge that can be mined that has already been developed. And now the key is to mine it in ways that can serve what customers want. I think Jake, you and Caroline have often talked about. Well, one of the things. Building reactors people want to buy. But one of the things I'd say, Rod, is that I do think that we've allowed for some of the advocates in the past to sort of promote nuclear air as a better alternative to solar and wind. And I think what that leads to is a suboptimal legislative strategy. So in many of these states, the solar and wind community already have, you know, 48% of the legislatures, legislators willing to, you know, pass a clean energy bill, right? And the nuclear industry has 10 legislators. And so you end up needing the solar and wind folks to join with the nuclear folks to actually pass a legislation necessary to fast track the deployment of these assets. But, you know, we sort of have set up some of the advocates in the past to sort of, you know, be in a situation where they believe that there's a fixed set of dollars and that ultimately that we have to take it from the wind and solar folks, right? And I think that that has caused a bit of a setback for the nuclear industry at the state level, but I think it can be repaired. I'm pretty sure all relationships can be repaired at some level. And I think it's important to recognize that what we're trying to do is produce clean energy energy that also... eliminates our dependence on fossil fuels. And with all, everybody who's rowing in that same direction should be, or should anybody, everyone on the same boat should be rowing in the same direction. Yeah, I agree with you, but I just think that that's, you know, and I think, Rad, to your, you know, you, I think know this full well on, you know, given the Twitter conversations that, you know, you've been a part of, that that always has, that hasn't been the case forever, right? The Kumbaya message hasn't been the case forever. And I think there that that is changing, but, you know, but that, but people do have long memories and it requires people to get above the fray and actually, you know, be an adult about things and figure out exactly how to repair those relationships and get that moving because I think, you know, the 100% clean energy bills are done in whatever it is, 10, 12 states. But the implementation of them are happening now. And I think getting help from the soil and wind industry to implement those laws and ways that promotes local nuclear deployment, I think just requires mending offenses, which has to be an active process. And I don't think that it is something that nuclear advocates in particular knew was needed. Yeah, I think, you know, I know you guys talked about this in your last podcast. I think it's an area where there was a tendency, I think, to perceive offensive misordifenceiveness from both sides. And I think the reality is we can put hand in hand going forward and to say, look, we want to clean energy future. We want all the tools and the tool blocks to more powerful voice to advocate for those things. I think there's, and this is going to sound maybe slightly controversial and it's a little, it's not exactly apples and apples, but you know, what happened in California with all the clean energy standards that they went forward with was impressive to me that they were able to move it to be clean energy and recognize the importance of those things, even though there's obviously not much of a nuclear footprint here at all. And I think it'd be really helpful in states where that's the case if you're just going to say, yeah, it's important to be clean energy inclusive. And in states where you have a strong nuclear foothold, to be hand in hand and recognize what that looks like. And I think part of that does have to start driving from these groups that are purely, honestly, purely climate motivated or mostly climate motivated. Some of these new groups are nuclear can maybe be the right partners to do that. They may not have the same voice, but for example, like the same volume of a voice that any I might have, but they can have some of that. So yeah, I think it's important having those pieces and playing. Yeah, no, and I definitely agree with that. I just think that we just need to recognize that while the macro is important, you know, I'm not going to control what Greenpeace does, but I think what the macro is important, what really matters is counting votes, right? And where the nuclear industry really needs to focus on is figuring out whether there are people on the bubble that are going to get economic development in their neck of the woods because, you know, they host military bases, they host, you know, sort of remote areas, they host other things that frankly, you know, can be the earliest deployments of these technologies, right? Because of the way the nuclear regulatory commission is set up and the way the military set up and all the different nuances, there are people that are in very strategic places that have frankly been anti-clean energy, but I think could be convinced to become pro-clean energy based on advanced nuclear. And, you know, and that's kind of what matters, right? It's basically people who bring votes to the table, you know, get a seat at the table. And, you know, people who are basically advocating based on, you know, some sort of, you know, emotionally charged approach, that's interesting. And you get newspaper articles about it, but you don't really get, you know, in the room at the legislative session, unless you bring votes to the table. Yeah, well, I think one thing where there's an interesting angle there, and I agree with you on that, is, you know, the last two major legislation, or item pieces of legislation that passed to the federal courts, nuclear had overwhelming support. And, you know, I think one was 94 96 votes in the support, or, you know, Yay, in the Senate. So you have a good base for that, that we have to now diversify out, to include in these things. I think the foundations are there. It's just making sure the conversations are happening around the right level. And this is where I, you know, go back to my, my kind of bone to pick earlier, is we need to be talking about deployment, because right now folks are so obsessed with getting money to develop a reactor, build one. But that's not the right angle. We need to be talking about how do we build the right foundation, the right framework, to build a lot of these things. And so, yeah, I agree. And that's where it's gonna be difficult to get people to think beyond paying their payroll for the next few years. And I'm not saying that light of the economic situation, I'm saying that, because that's kind of the motivator for a decent number of companies in this space, versus those of us who are really trying to work on scaling and building a lot of reactors with the course of 10 years, or more that's, you know, That's exactly right. I mean, part of the reason you guys are getting 96, you know, zero sort of votes is because, you know, folks viewed it as sort of a no risk vote, right? And I think as deployment goes up and the cost of federal budget goes up, that I think you're gonna see, you know, folks starting to provide a lot more scrutiny, right? And I think that that's what we all hope for. We hope for thoughtful policy coming out of the federal government, which I think in large part, frankly, has been pro innovation. I think they've largely been pro solar wind tax credits, nuclear tax credits, 45Q for carbon capture and all that stuff. I think, you know, where the rubber meets the world and deployment, frankly, is at the state level and getting the states to recognize that like, that, you know, sort of higher cost offshore wind or higher cost to advance nuclear for the first deployment of the product needs to get, you know, socialized within the cost of all the wholesale power. I just think that's critical. Yeah, you agree. And I think that... I was gonna say one of the things that I see is here in nuclear, and I think Jake, you and Carolina have mentioned this a lot. We really do have a great story to tell about some fascinating, innovatively innovative technologies that can be built within a certain time and a certain budget. And that's one of the real keys to enabling the deployment to move forward is once investors recognize that they can count on the budget and time estimates that they've been given, they'll be much more interested in helping the deployment move forward. I agree. So look, I'm hopeful. I think this is really fantastic. And you know, what are different a few years makes, Rod? And, you know, I think Jake should be commended for the extraordinary work that I was doing and the extraordinary milestone they just achieved. And I think the goal for all of us is to get, you know, a lot of clean energy out there because, you know, I don't think we're gonna be able to electrify everything and reach all these other goals without a diversity of solutions. And certainly, you know, a solution that has... Well, and we need to follow the example of the solar and wind history and drive down the cost curve, drive down and do that by the age-old method of practice, practice, practice. Yeah. No, I think that's absolutely it. And you're right, Jigir. And honestly, I really appreciate that you're bringing your experience, your expertise, your thoughts to this in a broad way. I think that means a lot, honestly, to the industry it's exciting for us. It's very exciting for us to think about what that can look like and what that might entail going forward. And, you know, I want to encourage that, you know, channel obviously open. And I think the call to everyone in the industry recognize that this is where the future needs to go. You know, we talked about the industry's starting to get organized to a small degree. But I think the right pieces are emerging in new ways for the state level advocacy, because you're absolutely right. That's where the focus has to be. And I think we've been able to find some of that in different pockets and really trying to figure out how to grow that. I really commend some groups who are doing work like that. And I really think that that's going to be a strong area to be paying attention to and to find how to support over the course of the next, you know, 12 to 18 months, especially to build the right foundation to go forward from. You know, one thing I think is interesting and a little different. And this isn't, well, this is, I think, a difference in terms of the narrative and in terms of the conversation top processes. What we're trying to do with advanced vision and not just we get okay, but in general is more than we have to move beyond the thought process and it's just about building one. It's about building the right platform like you just said, Rod, of being able to practice, practice, practice and build a lot of these and recognize that business models inherently are going to be different from that in a way that's different than what the kind of long tried and not proven to be a very smart way of just throwing money at companies to design and license reactors that become blind of market and other aspects. So, you know, I feel pretty excited about what's happening right now. And honestly, it's really encouraging to have people like you, Jiggers, engaged in thinking about these problems and contributing your voice here and trying to challenge, but also motivate an industry and hopefully get people to be thinking about this is going to be a different future. And that's exciting. Just an exciting thing to be thinking about. And now we just have to be actually active and realizing it. And at the end of the day, you know, a lot of the companies like us have to carry that ball early because we're the ones who are know the field better than any association can or any kind of group. Sure. As we make progress and the time is now because we've been doing this now for a little bit to start pulling in the right avenues of the right groups who want to support these things and build the right, I think, coalition, like you said, to recognize this. And I don't think that, you know, the, I don't think it's going to be that big of a challenge. It's just a matter of, you know, of execution. And to me, one of the biggest hurdles to that was having proof points that showed this is happening and this is real. And it doesn't need to have right now, right? There's so much focus on demonstration in the advanced reactor community and rebuild the plant. And that doesn't help anything. We've shown you can get to the point where they want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to get to. Now let's go and build and let's build the business model that scales this and let's focus on making sure the fields are fertile in the markets said where you got first of a kind early of a kind cost consideration so that we can practice and get this cost down. So anyway, thank you for being interested in this and being willing to like engage with groups like any eye and hopefully some of these other groups and companies like what we're doing and talking with Rod and trying to paint a picture of what can be achieved here. Awesome. Thank you both very much. Onward. And I know you both have a busy schedule. So go for it. Go, go, make the world a better place. Take care and thank you for your time. Yeah. Thanks Rod. Thank you all.